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Post by gpm414 on Mar 26, 2019 23:05:22 GMT -5
Bought a 2012 2680 WA last fall and have been going through it this winter. Yesterday while working on the twin 150 Yamaha's I found something electrical that doesn't seem right. I've included a picture of the VSR panel in the stern, along with a pic of the wiring on the back side. The boat has three batteries, one dedicated house battery controlled by the left switch, and one starting battery for each outboard controlled by the port/strd switch. I believe the boat came this way from the factory. It has a three bank charger that charges and maintains each battery separately. My question is with both switches in the OFF position, the starboard engine is still hot at the starter (the port engine is not). Why is power getting to the starboard engine while the switch is in the off position? Bad switch? Incorrect wiring? This is my first boat with the VSR system. Thoughts, wiring diagram and help appreciated.
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Post by Team Ruby on Mar 27, 2019 0:32:12 GMT -5
This is not a VSR related issue. I think what you have is an error in wiring at the back of the switch. My thought is that the starboard engine wire is on the same post as the battery lead. A quick test to confirm this is to pull the positive cable off of the battery for the starboard engine. If that solves the problem then all you need to do is move the engine wire to the switched side of the switch. I wasn't able to pull the switch part number off of the photo, but I believe it is similar to the Blue Seas 5511e. I've attached a pdf for this switch. Good luck with the new boat. Blue Seas 5511 E Battery Switch.pdf (204.67 KB)
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Post by outtadblue on Mar 27, 2019 7:42:44 GMT -5
Ruby is the go to man on this subject. I also think you have the starboard cable on the hot side of the switch. Follow the diagram on the pdf and it should work itself out.
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Post by fishnfool on Mar 27, 2019 7:57:45 GMT -5
And spray some CRC on those connections.
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Post by kbh on Mar 27, 2019 8:45:57 GMT -5
It's amazing how complicated they've made it. I remember (Back in the olden days) when you just hooked up a positive and a negative and went boating. If the battery was dead you pulled out the cranking cord from inside the cowling and gave it a good tug.
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Post by gpm414 on Mar 27, 2019 10:26:18 GMT -5
This is not a VSR related issue. I think what you have is an error in wiring at the back of the switch. My thought is that the starboard engine wire is on the same post as the battery lead. A quick test to confirm this is to pull the positive cable off of the battery for the starboard engine. If that solves the problem then all you need to do is move the engine wire to the switched side of the switch. I wasn't able to pull the switch part number off of the photo, but I believe it is similar to the Blue Seas 5511e. I've attached a pdf for this switch. Good luck with the new boat. Thanks for the help guys. I was thinking it probably has something to do with wiring, but wanted to get some input from folks with more experience with the Sailfish electronics. I will check the wires from the starter batteries to the switch. Will also clean and spray with CRC. I won't be back to the boat for a couple weeks, but will post what I find. Thanks
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Post by tiger on Mar 30, 2019 21:18:36 GMT -5
Looking at your wires, the VSR is connected between the house battery and one of the engines. The VSR only engages when the charging voltage is higher than the battery voltage. If the VSR relay was frozen in place its plausible it would be closed when the engine wasn't running. This should be easy to confirm. Be careful in there. If you take any of those battery leads off and short to ground you will have an unpleasant surprise. When tracing down your wires you should disconnect the end at the battery first.
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Post by gpm414 on Mar 31, 2019 19:33:18 GMT -5
Looking at your wires, the VSR is connected between the house battery and one of the engines. The VSR only engages when the charging voltage is higher than the battery voltage. If the VSR relay was frozen in place its plausible it would be closed when the engine wasn't running. This should be easy to confirm. Be careful in there. If you take any of those battery leads off and short to ground you will have an unpleasant surprise. When tracing down your wires you should disconnect the end at the battery first. Thanks for your input. A couple things come to mind. I've looked at all the documents that came with the boat, but I can't find a wiring diagram for the switch/VSR panel. I need to be sure the wiring is correct and the VSR is functioning properly (the boat is new to me). Without a factory wiring diagram, I'm thinking power is coming from Start battery 1 and 2 to one side of the engine switch, and then out to the port/starboard engines. The house battery power cable must go to the house switch, and then out to the boat systems. I've never had a boat with a VSR, so I have to defer to someone with experience with them, especially if they can "freeze up".
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Post by reelkul on Apr 1, 2019 10:19:58 GMT -5
On your boat, Sailfish utilized components for the battery management system from two manufacturers. The VSR is made by BEP. Here is a link to the wiring instructions: www.bepmarine.com/~/media/inRiver/329437-25323.pdf The switches are made by BlueSea Systems. They are the m-Series switches. Here is a link to a basic set-up with these switches, minus the relay: assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/6010_web_version.pdfTo figure your problem out, you will have to use a combination of the wiring schematics in the links. The BEP system utilizes three switches, while the BlueSea utilizes only two. The Emergency Parallel Isolator in the BEP schematic is integrated into the BlueSea switches. The BlueSea switch in Combine setting is connecting the of the batteries together. To troubleshoot your system, I would label everything as is right now, and take a lot of pictures. Have a good understanding of how the switch panel is currently wired. Then I would disconnect the VSR from the engine switch, which should yield a basic set-up as in the BlueSea link. Then see if your starboard engine is still hot. If it is, then your issue is somewhere else. If it is not, then the issue is how the VSR is connected to the engine switch.
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Post by fishnfool on Apr 1, 2019 10:31:36 GMT -5
That's weird because my VSR panel which looks like yours has two very different switches and two VSR's where yours has one, and the hole where the other VSR should be is plugged and now has what looks like a fuse?
I am beginning to think that someone/previous owner replaced the switches and modified/ removed one of the VSR's while reconfiguring the wiring in doing so?
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Post by reelkul on Apr 1, 2019 10:39:44 GMT -5
I found the wiring for the m-series switches and the BlueSea System's ACR, which is the same as BEP's VSR. assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/980014350.pdfBut Fishnfool brings up a really good point, where somebody did some re-wiring. You seem to have a switch or breaker in the cut-out next to the VSR. What does that switch do?
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Post by tiger on Apr 1, 2019 11:00:07 GMT -5
My Panel came with 2 switches and 1 VSR and I added a second VSR after speaking with Yamaha on the phone.
This is how your system "SHOULD" be wired. If you need to change the battery numbers around to make this line up, no worries. Battery 1 Battery 2 Battery 3 all ground together (somewhere). Battery switches are 2 POLE (DPST with a twist). IN the ON position both poles are connected from the battery to the load. When in the additional PARRALLEL position both poles are ALSO connected to each other.
Lets call the switches HOUSE and Engines. Lets call each pole a name as well, B1 L1 and B1 L2. B for Battery and L for Load. We will abbreviate as needed by saying HB1 and EL2 and so on. Make sense?
Battery 1 will be the House. Battery 2 will be the Starboard. Battery 3 will be the Port.
FORGET about the VSR for now.
If you draw all these items on a piece of paper you can connect the dots. Each battery switch just has 4 external connections. The magic happens inside the switch.
Remember all the negatives are connected together at a buss bar. We are talking about the positives here.
Batt 1 goes to HB1. HL1 goes to the breaker panel where all the electronics are connected. Batt 2 goes to EB1. EL1 goes to the Starboard Engine. Batt 3 goes to EB2. EL2 goes to the Port Engine.
When you turn on the HOUSE switch the contact is made between HB1 and HL1 which supplies power to all your electronics. When you turn on the Star/Port switch EB1 is connected to EL1 to the Starboard engine and EB2 is connected to EL2 to the Port engine.
Again, I stress your battery order may be different, but this is how it is supposed to be wired.
Now it starts getting complicated. One of the Poles from the Engine switch, either EB1 or EB2 (or EL1 or EL2) will be connected to HB2 or HL2 (doesn't matter really) with a small jumper. This will be thick wire but not as thick as the battery cables. Remember in the COMBINEor Parallel position H2 and H1 will be tied together. This allows the HOUSE battery to combine with one of the engine batteries. If you also put the engine switch to combine/ parallel, it will combine the 2 engine batteries. With both switches in combine, all 3 batteries will be tied together.
Now this is where the VSR comes in. The VSR has a power connection that Sailfish currently wires to the ENGINE side of the battery switch. The VSR instructions have that wires to the BATTERY side. This was confusing but I spoke with them and they were concerned the VSR itself would kill the battery when the boat was parked and OFF. Its a small amount of current but left alone could gradually kill the battery. So the VSR only works when the boat is running. Its totally possible this wire on your boat is always hot. You will have to see where it goes. It is a small wire. There is another wire on the VSR for an indicator. Sailfish didn't use this on my boat. This is so you can mount a light on the dash showing status. On mine it was coiled up tight. The VSR then has 2 BATTERY wires which make the relay connections. One of these is to be connected to the CHARGING side so one of the engines, while the other is connected to the HOUSE, typically HB1 or HL1. If HB1 it would charge the house battery when connected even if the house switch was off, but the engines were running. That makes a lot of sense to me. How the VSR works is it senses the battery voltage on both sides. If the charging side is discharging, the battery voltage is decreasing, and if the voltage is BELOW a threshold (forget the exact number) then the VSR is OFF, NO CONNECTION. It doesn't matter what the House battery voltage is at that point. Once the charging side battery reaches that threshold and is charging, the VSR will open and allow the charge amps to flow to the house battery. The engine battery has to be above the threshold in order for the VSR to stay open. It is helpful if both batteries are the same type because they will tend to equalize. I would also make sure to have the same age batteries.
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Post by gpm414 on Apr 1, 2019 11:08:49 GMT -5
I found the wiring for the m-series switches and the BlueSea System's ACR, which is the same as BEP's VSR. assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/980014350.pdfBut Fishnfool brings up a really good point, where somebody did some re-wiring. You seem to have a switch or breaker in the cut-out next to the VSR. What does that switch do? Thanks for the link to the BlueSea ACR, I'll check it out. The switch to the left of the VSR was added by the previous owner and controls the underwater lights. I'm guessing that is not where the factory installs the underwater light switch. There have been a couple weird wiring things I've found. My goal is to keep the wiring clean and simple as possible. I'm sure there are more surprises coming.
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Post by gpm414 on Apr 1, 2019 11:32:37 GMT -5
Thank you tiger, this is the information I was hoping to find. I'll take this one step at a time and go through my system. I'll read all the links and see what was done on my boat. I'll check all the wires, connections, and where they are coming from and going too, and compare that to what the diagrams show. The batteries were new last year and I have load tested each of them, and they all test great. This will take me a couple weeks since the boat is at the coast, 180 miles from our home.
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Post by tiger on Apr 2, 2019 22:07:13 GMT -5
Obviously yours is not exactly like this but this is the basic schematic you are looking for.
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