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Post by billy2660 on Dec 3, 2019 9:41:04 GMT -5
Hi all,
2006 2660 WAC twin F150's
Prop ventilation since I've had it, tried Rev 4's, worst ones tried, PTZ3, ventilated, tried OFS4, same crap, lowered motors down as far as possible and slapped on SEC4 (4 blades semi cleavered) and worked enough to operate but bad seas and following just blows them out. Been in touch with Ken Reeves many times, he's stumped and can't seem to figure this out.
So on my own I've been looking at the Turbo Ultima 4's, I was thinking in a 15 pitch, would they offer better grip and if the RPM is too much, I can add a little cup to bring that down and get even better grip. However, I haven't read anything on them with the Sailfish boats. Here is what I was thinking, try these props, add wedges for a little negative trim, leave the motors down all the way and see how that goes. problem with trial and error for me is, once it's in the water, the marina charges a ridiculous fee to pull it and put it back in. My trailer was stolen lasty year and I never bought a new one for this boat so I can't take the boat out myself if I wanted to.
So to the ventilated SF boat owners, what have you done to alleviate or eliminate the issues or do you just deal with i, or did you just sell the boat off? I know jack plates have done well for some, this is an issue I have researched for countless hours, even on the old SF forum.
It seems that the shafts on these F150's are too short and should be longer. I don't have the energy anymore to reinvent the wheel with the boat so I am looking for suggestions on how to make this more manageable and to see if my suggestion to try is worth it or if anyone has experience on the Ultima 4's or what they might recommend.
Thanks Billy
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Post by fishnfool on Dec 3, 2019 10:05:23 GMT -5
Ken at Prop Gods would be the one to ask about Turbo props. It seems 15p would be to low though, 17p would be more ideal assuming they are similar diameter to Rev 4's and your motors are mounted at an appropriate height.
I guess I am lucky I don't have this severe ventilation issue.
Rev 4's have worked for others in the past, along with adding wedges. I have two sets of props, the stock 19p 3 blades and 17p Rev 4's which were labbed adding a degree of pitch AND cup. My Rev 4's have serious bite, boat rides like it's on rails. I have only experienced minor ventilation with the 3 blade Reliance props.
What is your motors mounting height currently? The 25"s shafts are not too short. If anything SF mounts the engines too low, like most manufacturer's and they can stand to be raised some, but maybe the previous owner has adjusted the engine height?
Do you have any transducers mounted that are remotely in line with the motors, through hulls, TM?
First, I would check your motor mounting height.
Second, I would check your engines toe measurement. Are they toe-in or toe-out? They should be toe-out. Too much toe-in I have found increases the amount of the ventilation - I have played with various engine toe settings e.g. more in, neutral etc. I would try to adjust the toe so there's a bit more toe out. it is easy enough to do - should take 5 minutes.
Third, if you still have Rev 4's and if in 17p, I would have some cup added to the blades. This will help A LOT with bite.
Fourth, if the mounting height is appropriate, and you've adjusted the engine toe, adding some cup to an appropriate sized 4 blade prop, as a last resort, you could add wedges, which sets the motors back a bit further putting the props into cleaner water. Many owners have experienced very good results with the wedges.
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Post by reelkul on Dec 3, 2019 10:44:09 GMT -5
I have a 2006 2660CC with F250's. The boat was originally set up with Mercury Mirage 23P 3-blade props, and the engines were in the middle hole. On a flat day, with these props the boat would get great mpg and great top speed. The draw back was that it took a while to get on plane, the bow was always up, and in wavy conditions (2+ foot waves) the ventilation was unbelievable. I tried lowering the engines and the ventilation would not go away. Per Ken's (PropGods) recommendations, I went with the OFS 21P 4-blade props. Now, the boat jumps on plane, the bow is down, and I have not had any ventilation. I lost 1-2 mph top speed and a little bit of mpg. The boat is so much better with the 4-blades.
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Post by fishnfool on Dec 3, 2019 10:59:25 GMT -5
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Post by billy2660 on Dec 4, 2019 10:02:04 GMT -5
Thank you for that and your in depth advice before this. Originally the motors were mounted one hole down from the top, so as per Sailfish advice, I lowered down as far as it can go to help the ventilation issue. Honestly I feel it handles sloppier that way but it did reduce the ventilation. The wedges, I have considered for the past 3 seasons to do it and I wasn't sure about it actually working and if I should raise the motors back up one hole to where it originally was. Not sure about steering ram clearance as well. I do still have the Rev 4's and I felt adding cup would screw up my RPM's as I remember only at 5700 rpms wot. I have the appropriate hub kit as per Ken's advice but it seemed to not like the props the second day out with it, it sounded mad. The toe in/out...funny thing, I did the on plane alignment last season with the OFS4's and the boat took it where it wanted to be, toe in pretty good and the ventilation was at it's worst. My thought on the Ultima 4 was the diameter is in the F150 range of happiness. The Rev 4's are just outside of that range and figured maybe the Ultima 4's would be where I need it? I'm just so tired and exhausted from trying to figure this out. Even to just get it almost eliminated and run better I would be happier. A following sea or getting off plane with the water rushing back to the transom, it lifts the transom and ventilates. Very bad with following seas because it takes away my drive and can at times be dangerous losing grip and steering temporarily. So if I keep the Rev 4's and wedge the motors, should I bring the motors back up to the original hole? I didn't think raising it would work because it doesn't like being high in the water. Do I look for a bow lifting only prop or does the stern lifting help? I didn't see a stern lifting prop as helping. I do have through hull transducer (flush mount) and it isn't in line with the props. I would love to raise the motors back up and have better handling as I feel I lost some handling after they were lowered. I just feel raising them will be a bad idea and I will have to have the boat pulled back out again to lower.
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Post by abouttime2fish on Dec 4, 2019 11:12:16 GMT -5
As far as toe, I have a 2360cc but this is what sailfish told me. Their response was quick.
The measurement from the center of each prop shaft should measure 1/8” to ¼” shorter than the measurement of the leading edge from one gear case to the other one. Providing that your prop shafts are not bent. This will point the two props in towards the middle of the boat. Please let me know if you have any more questions at all. Denny Warren VP of Dealer Development & Technical Support Seminole Marine Group Sailfish & Southwind Boats
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Post by fishnfool on Dec 4, 2019 11:13:39 GMT -5
billy despite other folks finding this way of aligning engine toe to be beneficial, I have found that the on plane alignment for engine toe does not work for our hulls and motor set up, same as I think you found out. When I tried it this way, the engines aligned how they wanted BUT the bite/ventilation was terrible, so I put the toe back to where it was (toe out) and I am otherwise happy.
I would remeasure the engine toe and make sure your motors are "toe out" as-in the leading edge being further apart than the trailing edge. Try anywhere between 1/4 and 1/2" further apart, experiment with it. you should notice the steering tightens up.
What pitch are your Rev 4's? The cup will definitely will drop the RPM's a bit (maybe 50 to 100) and assuming you have 17p it should be fine for the time being as your motors will still be within the recommended operating range (5600 - 6000 RPMs) and before going about adjusting the engine height, I would recommend first seeing if adjusting the engine toe combined with adding some cup to the Rev 4's mitigates the problem - this will certainly be cheaper than a new set of props. The Rev 4's are BIG props, lots of blade surface area, that added cup can really make a difference, but I think it would be a mistake to not ensure your motor alignment is right first.
Ideally with 4 blade props the motors need to be raised to account for the added blade surface area and drop in RPM's as a result, but this can be done once everything else gets dialed in.
As far as wedges, the wedges used by other SF owners on their 2360's and 2660's do not require any tie bar or steering modifications. This can be done as a last measure if the other measures have improved the situation, but there's still some minor ventilation going on.
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Post by billy2660 on Dec 4, 2019 11:41:41 GMT -5
billy despite other folks finding this way of aligning engine toe to be beneficial, I have found that the on plane alignment for engine toe does not work for our hulls and motor set up, same as I think you found out. When I tried it this way, the engines aligned how they wanted BUT the bite/ventilation was terrible, so I put the toe back to where it was (toe out) and I am otherwise happy. I would remeasure the engine toe and make sure your motors are "toe out" as-in the leading edge being further apart than the trailing edge. Try anywhere between 1/4 and 1/2" further apart, experiment with it. you should notice the steering tightens up. What pitch are your Rev 4's? The cup will definitely will drop the RPM's a bit (maybe 50 to 100) and assuming you have 17p it should be fine for the time being as your motors will still be within the recommended operating range (5600 - 6000 RPMs) and before going about adjusting the engine height, I would recommend first seeing if adjusting the engine toe combined with adding some cup to the Rev 4's mitigates the problem - this will certainly be cheaper than a new set of props. The Rev 4's are BIG props, lots of blade surface area, that added cup can really make a difference, but I think it would be a mistake to not ensure your motor alignment is right first. Ideally with 4 blade props the motors need to be raised to account for the added blade surface area and drop in RPM's as a result, but this can be done once everything else gets dialed in. As far as wedges, the wedges used by other SF owners on their 2360's and 2660's do not require any tie bar or steering modifications. This can be done as a last measure if the other measures have improved the situation, but there's still some minor ventilation going on. I like your plan of attack. Yes the Rev 4's are 17p. Yes, they are damn big. Like I could barely get my finger between the tip of the blade and the bottom of the lower unit, freaked me out being so close. I imagined a stick getting in there and spinning the hub.
I have played around with the toe in and out and just left it near neutral for the remainder of this season. Sailfish did tell me about toe out last year but I was unable to reach their suggested measurement or I just did it wrong when it was on blocks at the marina...Here is a copy of what was said to me from Sailfish about the toe....
"When we mount the 150hp motors we put each motor a ¼ inch toe out for a total of ½ inch. This is to help fight cavitation. I would start there and see how it does." "You want the measurement at the prop side to be ½ inch further apart than the transom side."
So with the above response I couldn't understand what he meant by 1/4" for a total of 1/2" and then when I asked him to verify toe out he is telling me basically toe in based on what I have gathered online. Toe out would mean the pro side facing each other closer then the leading edge of the bullet shaped gear case. This is what got me confused and I just monkeyed around until it was a tad better.
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Post by billy2660 on Dec 4, 2019 11:44:38 GMT -5
I like your plan of attack. Yes the Rev 4's are 17p. Yes, they are damn big. Like I could barely get my finger between the tip of the blade and the bottom of the lower unit, freaked me out being so close. I imagined a stick getting in there and spinning the hub.
I have played around with the toe in and out and just left it near neutral for the remainder of this season. Sailfish did tell me about toe out last year but I was unable to reach their suggested measurement or I just did it wrong when it was on blocks at the marina...Here is a copy of what was said to me from Sailfish about the toe....
"When we mount the 150hp motors we put each motor a ¼ inch toe out for a total of ½ inch. This is to help fight cavitation. I would start there and see how it does." "You want the measurement at the prop side to be ½ inch further apart than the transom side."
So with the above response I couldn't understand what he meant by 1/4" for a total of 1/2" and then when I asked him to verify toe out he is telling me basically toe in based on what I have gathered online. Toe out would mean the pro side facing each other closer then the leading edge of the bullet shaped gear case. This is what got me confused and I just monkeyed around until it was a tad better.
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Post by fishnfool on Dec 4, 2019 11:50:22 GMT -5
billy, that e-mail suggests 'toe-in' but they state 'toe-out,' yet what was described is 'toe-in.' When the props are further apart than the leading edge near the transom that is 'toe in.' I think whomever wrote that e-mail was confused and it's wrong.
See Denny's e-mail above posted by aboutime2fish. Denny describes toe-out, where the props are closer together than the leading edge.
You want to adjust them for toe-out. If your motors are set closer to neutral that is contributing to your ventilation problem. Measure the difference between the leading edge and trailing edge to better determine how much adjustment is required. You will likely have to unscrew the tie rod buckle 3 or 4 turns, maybe more, then remeasure. There should be enough adjustment to allow for at least 1/4" of toe-out, but I would see if you can get closer to a 1/2".
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Post by fishnfool on Dec 4, 2019 11:55:43 GMT -5
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Post by fishnfool on Dec 4, 2019 12:06:01 GMT -5
And if you're in FL, Rich at Leading Edge Propeller can lab those Rev 4's including balancing them. He is very highly regarded.
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Post by tdiver on Dec 10, 2019 16:32:50 GMT -5
I now have the 2660 I bought used and a good friend has had a 260 since new. After trying all the different things discussed on the internet from props to wedges the solution is a 6" setback bracket. I used my boat for 3 months with tons of ventilation/blowout when getting on plane in any kind of sea state and even in the intercoastal if there was any boat wake. He had already added them to his 260 and was adamant that I put them on and not mess with other props or wedges. I bought the ones from TH Marine that are rated for 300HP each and it's honestly the best $700 I've spent on the boat....other than autopilot (I'd take out all the rod holders and maybe one engine before giving that up). Now I use original Yamaha props it comes with from the factory and get around 2.2mpg cruising at 30mph and have hit 51mph in the river with just me and only about 25 gallons of fuel onboard. Jumps right on plane and I can even trim the motors up a little while running rather than having to leave them buried all the time. You don't need anything other than that in my opinion. The shop mounted them for me for 1 hour labor each which cost me an additional $220. Mounted all the way down in the new bracket since it's offset from the original and raises the engines up a couple inches. Good luck.
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Post by billy2660 on Dec 18, 2019 8:57:09 GMT -5
I now have the 2660 I bought used and a good friend has had a 260 since new. After trying all the different things discussed on the internet from props to wedges the solution is a 6" setback bracket. I used my boat for 3 months with tons of ventilation/blowout when getting on plane in any kind of sea state and even in the intercoastal if there was any boat wake. He had already added them to his 260 and was adamant that I put them on and not mess with other props or wedges. I bought the ones from TH Marine that are rated for 300HP each and it's honestly the best $700 I've spent on the boat....other than autopilot (I'd take out all the rod holders and maybe one engine before giving that up). Now I use original Yamaha props it comes with from the factory and get around 2.2mpg cruising at 30mph and have hit 51mph in the river with just me and only about 25 gallons of fuel onboard. Jumps right on plane and I can even trim the motors up a little while running rather than having to leave them buried all the time. You don't need anything other than that in my opinion. The shop mounted them for me for 1 hour labor each which cost me an additional $220. Mounted all the way down in the new bracket since it's offset from the original and raises the engines up a couple inches. Good luck. Would you happen to have a pic of the plates? Curious to know what holes the brackets vs the motors sit in etc... I did just buy Bob's wedges and still have doubts to even bother installing them. So do you have a set it and forget it position you have the motors? I don't want to have to fiddle with motor height and adjustment for every variable the bay/ocean throws at me. I would rather have it set at one position and not worry anymore.
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Post by tdiver on Dec 18, 2019 15:28:23 GMT -5
I now have the 2660 I bought used and a good friend has had a 260 since new. After trying all the different things discussed on the internet from props to wedges the solution is a 6" setback bracket. I used my boat for 3 months with tons of ventilation/blowout when getting on plane in any kind of sea state and even in the intercoastal if there was any boat wake. He had already added them to his 260 and was adamant that I put them on and not mess with other props or wedges. I bought the ones from TH Marine that are rated for 300HP each and it's honestly the best $700 I've spent on the boat....other than autopilot (I'd take out all the rod holders and maybe one engine before giving that up). Now I use original Yamaha props it comes with from the factory and get around 2.2mpg cruising at 30mph and have hit 51mph in the river with just me and only about 25 gallons of fuel onboard. Jumps right on plane and I can even trim the motors up a little while running rather than having to leave them buried all the time. You don't need anything other than that in my opinion. The shop mounted them for me for 1 hour labor each which cost me an additional $220. Mounted all the way down in the new bracket since it's offset from the original and raises the engines up a couple inches. Good luck. Would you happen to have a pic of the plates? Curious to know what holes the brackets vs the motors sit in etc... I did just buy Bob's wedges and still have doubts to even bother installing them. So do you have a set it and forget it position you have the motors? I don't want to have to fiddle with motor height and adjustment for every variable the bay/ocean throws at me. I would rather have it set at one position and not worry anymore. Yep. I haven't adjusted it at all once I got it setup. It seems to be just about perfect for me. Send me a PM with an email address or phone number to send some pics to. I just took a couple picture of it for you. When I'm in the intercoastal zipping along or in the ocean it seems to be a really good setup for both. Got into some pretty nasty confused 3-4'ers in the gulf stream a couple weeks ago and I tucked the motors and gave it a good bit of tabs and plowed away. I even stopped to let a guy puke and was able to take off in it and get on plane without any blowout which wouldn't have been possible before and I would have been feathering the throttles and maybe making multiple attempts to get it to bite. I really can't say enough good things about them and how they really seem to be a solution for a really solid boat with this one really major flaw from the factory in my opinion.
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